The Ends of Curiosity
In this episode, “curiosity snobs” Russ Roberts and Ian Leslie talk about Leslie’s book, Curious: The Desire to Know and Why Your Future Depends On It, how parents can help kids be curious (ask questions back, provide things to be curious about), and how puzzles like Wordle are different from mysteries like how the universe began. A question that Leslie says was motivating for him is, “Why are some people incurious?” And I found myself wanting to respond that everyone is incurious about most things. Even children asking 40,000 questions a year come to the end of what they want to know at some point. How does my brain grow, where was I before I was born, and why can’t I wear mermaid make-up all the time. To focus on topics like “Curiosity” and “Conflict,” Leslie must turn away from many other topics. Roberts’ different shifts in the guests and topics for EconTalk are also a turning away from other infinite possibilities. One exchange I particularly liked was this: Russ Roberts: “It’s interesting to me that mysteries, you’re suggesting because they’re bottomless, there’s always more to discover, but for some people that’s just a source of endless frustration. ‘Why would I learn about that? Tell me about something I can figure out.’ Ian Leslie: Yeah. That’s true. But, I think it ultimately is a deeper satisfaction; and not just in terms of fiction or art, but I think that’s how scientists think about their fields of investigation. They think about them as mysteries, not puzzles. They’re not kind of thinking, ‘Okay, if I write one more paper, I can kill this whole field of inquiry.’ Maybe some of them are actually some of the time; but generally speaking, they feel like they’re part of a kind of great river of inquiry that’s going to go on a long time and won’t be solved with one more bit of information. And, that’s why they love it: they’re enthralled to the mystery. Much of what researchers and academics do is turn big mysteries into small, solvable puzzles. How did the prohibition of French cambrics into England in the 18th century affect the market for cotton from India? This is a puzzle in the larger mystery of the nature and causes of the wealth (and poverty) of nations. The scientific method and the Enlightenment increased the number and quality of puzzles and people engaging with them. Much of the conversation is about education and learning, including thinking about the relationship between knowing things (the geography of Europe) and knowing how to think about things (like the causes of World War II). Your memory gives you the material for thinking and this is part of why good early education for children is so important. Both Roberts and Leslie are fans of the open-ended seminar (listen to more on that here with Zena Hitz), because it encourages a kind of exploration that is different from listening to an expert lecture. And much of what a good education should consist of reminded me of a favorite Adam Smith quote: The great secret of education is to direct vanity to proper objects. (TMS, Section III.: Of Self-Command) While there’s much one could disagree with (I, for one, would much rather reread Agatha Christie’s Murder on the Orient Express than reread F. Scott Fitzgerald’s The Great Gatsby. Hercule Poirot is as fascinating as Jay Gatsby and better company) the episode has clearly earned the EconTalk tagline, “Conversations for the Curious.” Leslie has been on EconTalk once before talking about his book Conflicted. He also has a substack called The Ruffian that you can sign up for. He must have been an early adopter because his first post is dated Aug 27, 2017. You can read a recent, unlocked (free) post here: https://ianleslie.substack.com/p/creating-thinking-deciding. In the meantime, we’d like to hear what you took away from this episode. We hope you’ll take a moment to consider one or more of the prompts below: 1- Leslie projects a rosy perspective of changes as a result of curiosity being mostly positive and good. To what extent do you think this is true? 2- Both Roberts and Leslie express skepticism about trusting academic studies but also both think that knowledge can be acquired and that the acquisition of knowledge has improved the lives of many people. What sorts of processes or structures for curiosity-based inquiry should people look to? 3- Cities and strangers are presented as “engines of curiosity.” Jane Jacobs would agree, as we can learn from Janet Bufton. But cities often have serious challenges with things like violence and illness and poverty. Does curiosity necessarily cause conflict between those who value it and those who don’t? (Maybe we’ll have to read Leslie’s other book to find out…) 4- Speaking of conflict, Leslie suggests that curiosity and judgment often conflict. When you are curious, you are abstaining from judgements. When you are actively judging, you aren’t engaging in the same kind of open-ended curiosity as when you are not. Is he right about that? Can one be judging and curious at the same time? If not, why not? 5- A young girl who reads Fitzgerald’s The Great Gatsby (or, perhaps worse, watches one of the many quite glamorous movie versions) could be forgiven for wanting to be more like Daisy Buchanan. That, presumably, isn’t the kind of transformation that Roberts and Leslie would likely encourage and yet it’s part of curiosity and sympathy. How can curiosity be guided to proper objects? Roberts and Leslie discuss the importance of reading literature and being sympathetic in entirely positive ways but are they missing a concern about improper sympathy? When is sympathy bad? (0 COMMENTS)